When Ego gets in the way of Reason
Earlier I was invited to participate in talks that had the potential to merge the two IRC channels pertaining to NationStates II on the Esper network. A bit of background history to begin with:
Nanakaland founded the #nationstates2 channel some time ago. He then proceeded to make it clear that not everyone was welcome there (whether they had committed any bannable offenses or not), which seemed to be rather much not in the spirit of the game. The channel was sporadically active, depending on who was logged on and when.
At one point it became abundantly clear that the animosity and exclusive behaviour had gotten entirely silly, I created a new channel for the use of folks wanting to discuss, without the draconian rule - #nationstates_2.
This created rather a ruckus - including if I recall, the infamous 'NationStates Mafia' conspiracy and such. It was, in a word, silly.
Knowing that Euroslavia and others were better qualified, I passed over ownership/founder status to him, and called it good. I'd thought that things had somewhat settled.
Fast-forward to present. Euroslavia, in a gesture of good will, offers a merge to clear up the two, and combine in a way that pleases both sides, and eliminates confusion over the two. This is what happens next.
(Followed by a complete log of everything that happened while I was in channel at least, in the second post. Feel free to compare. Not all needed to be repeated here for the sake of brevity.)
Forward again. After much discussion and being invited to aforementioned talks, Nanakaland illustrates exactly why such a merger will never take place - his ego simply will not allow it. Logged file to follow.
[15:33] <-Nathicana-> So what are each channel's reasons for wanting a merge? Earlier I heard flat out 'no' from Nanaka along with other things that needn't be mentioned.
[15:34] <-UploadedMinds-> Nanakaland: the discussions between the denominations are
[15:34] <-Nanakaland-> A similar thing happened in the Middle Ages when there was just Catholisism and Eastern Orthodoxy..
[15:34] <-Nanakaland-> They tried to unite again...
[15:34] <-Nathicana-> But we're not talking religions right now, we're talking these two channels. Lets not dredge all that up.
[15:34] <-Nanakaland-> The patriarch and pope ended up excommunicating each other
[15:35] <-UploadedMinds-> Nana, to the topic
[15:35] <-Neutron-> Nanakaland: A wee bit offtopic?
[15:35] <-Nanakaland-> My point is...
[15:35] <-Nanakaland-> When there's two divisions...
[15:35] <-Nanakaland-> One slight disagreement is enough to make things worse when you try to talk
[15:36] <-Neutron-> There are two divisions for apparently no reason. The two channels cover the exact same topic, they are just run by two different sets of people.
[15:36] <-UploadedMinds-> As founder: Do you want a merger or not?
[15:36] * Nathicana waits for the apology to be offered first.
[15:37] <-Nanakaland-> Who founded #NationStates_2?
[15:37] <-Nanakaland-> and why?
[15:37] <-Nanakaland-> There was already a #NationStates2 for a long time
[15:38] <-Rezo-> you didn't really reply to the question...
[15:39] <-UploadedMinds-> As founder: Do you want a merger or not? (y/n)
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> Can I use a lifeline?
[15:40] <-Euroslavia-> no.
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> :(
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> no then.
[15:40] <-Neutron-> Nanakaland: It is in the best interest of everyone that the channels merge
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> if Euro doesn't want one...
[15:40] <-Nathicana-> I think honesty would be best.
[15:41] <-Rezo-> <-Neutron-> Nanakaland: It is in the best interest of everyone that the channels merge <---- I'd tentatively disaree...
[15:41] <-Euroslavia-> that wasnt my answer
[15:41] <-Euroslavia-> i was responding to your "can i use a lifeline"
[15:41] <-Nathicana-> Neutron, there is no point to forcing it, and I'm not convinced of 'greater good' or 'best interest' depending.
[15:42] <-Nanakaland-> who proposed a merger and why?
[15:42] <-Nanakaland-> why were there two separate channels in the first place?
[15:42] <-UploadedMinds-> it came up
[15:42] <-Nanakaland-> why do the two parties disagree?
[15:42] <-Euroslavia-> I proposed it because there's no point in having 2 #nationstates_2 channels
[15:42] <-Nathicana-> Well, you yourself would have to answer part of that, Nanaka.
[15:43] <-Nanakaland-> well, one is #NationStates2
[15:43] * Euroslavia notes that he said two
[15:44] <-Nanakaland-> well...
[15:45] <-UploadedMinds-> well, I am internationalist enough not to care about the name of the place I tux arounfd in
[15:46] <-Euroslavia-> ok
[15:46] <-Nanakaland-> No one answered my question
[15:46] <-Nanakaland-> Who founded #NationStates_2 and why?
[15:46] <-Nanakaland-> There was already one channel, they should have known that confusion would follow
[15:47] <-Nathicana-> I recall the other channel being largely inactive, and exclusive at the time. So I created a new one that wasn't. Simple as that.
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> It was exclusive at the time...
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> because GregorydelosSantos was in there
[15:47] <-Nathicana-> which it shouldn't be.
[15:47] * Euroslavia nods. It wasn't too active.
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> telling me who to ban
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> until I realized
[15:48] <-Nanakaland-> it wasn't inactive and it still isn't
[15:48] <-Nathicana-> I don't care for the excuses, the fact remains, it was not a friendly channel.
[15:49] <-Nathicana-> In any case, I created the new one, it got used amply, and I handed over ownership to Euro, considering he knows more about it and is better qualified to have the keys so to speak.
[15:49] <-Nanakaland-> yeah
[15:49] <-Nanakaland-> but now there's two similarly sized channels, #NationStates_2 peaking in American time, #NationStates2 peaking in European time...
[15:49] <-UploadedMinds-> right
[15:50] <-Nanakaland-> with similarities in almost everything.
[15:50] <-UploadedMinds-> yeah
[15:50] <-Nathicana-> So one -could- mean relatively continuous use, or two could reasonably continue to exist and work as they have been.
[15:51] <-Nanakaland-> why don't we keep things the way they are?
[15:51] <-Nanakaland-> I see no problem.
[15:51] <-Nanakaland-> If we can't agree, there's no harm in keeping things the way they are.
[15:51] <-UploadedMinds-> because as people said: it's pointless
[15:51] * Nathicana looks for the disagreements.
[15:51] <-UploadedMinds-> Nana, that is a fallback
[15:52] <-Euroslavia-> wait, you just spoke of how similar both are, then you say that you want to keep things as they are?
[15:52] <-Nathicana-> Not seeing any so far, other than Nanaka's ...
[15:52] <-Euroslavia-> I'm a little confused here.
[15:52] <-Neutron-> It is like having two spoons when you're eating your breakfast cereal, only one is needed.
[15:52] <-Nanakaland-> I have been in #NationStates2 since I have been active in IRC
[15:52] <-Nanakaland-> it'd be like throwing out your favorite spoon and another and then buying a new, Neutron
[15:52] <-Nathicana-> Ok, so ego and 'feelings' are the issue.
[15:52] <-UploadedMinds-> apparently
[15:53] <-Nathicana-> It's a channel. It really shouldn't be a big deal.
[15:53] <-Nanakaland-> would you give up #nationstates for a compromise?
[15:53] <-Nathicana-> If it seemed like it was needed? Sure.
[15:54] <-Nanakaland-> let me rephrase that...
[15:54] <-Nathicana-> Not like we haven't done it before. I mean heck, we had to switch servers entirely and start all over.
[15:54] <-Nathicana-> And there was problems with that, too.
[15:54] <-Nanakaland-> Would Karma give up #NationStates for a compromise?
[15:55] <-Nathicana-> No idea. How am I supposed to answer for Karma?
[15:55] <-UploadedMinds-> Nanakaland: is Karma involved?
[15:55] <-Nathicana-> Besides, this argument gets us nowhere. #nationstates is not in question.
[15:55] <-UploadedMinds-> right
[15:56] <-Nathicana-> If Nanaka doesn't want to, he shouldn't be forced to. People are as free as they ever were to choose where they want to hang out. If it makes a difference to him, so be it. *shrugs*
[15:56] <-UploadedMinds-> yeah
[15:57] <-Nathicana-> I guess I don't get what the big deal is. Merge, or don't. Simple.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> don't
[16:00] <-Euroslavia-> why? Give me a good reason.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> It is my largest channel.
[16:00] <-Euroslavia-> a valid reason.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> I cannot give it up.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> It'd be like giving up a carpool where I'm driver
[16:01] <-Nathicana-> ...
[16:01] <-Rezo-> o.O
[16:01] <-Euroslavia-> so you're letting your emotions mess with the future of NS2, and the fact that there are 2 NS2 channels.
[16:01] <-Rezo-> You're an... Odd... person.
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> no...
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> It doesn't matter if there are two NS2 channels
[16:01] <-Nathicana-> I think this is a rather sad commentary then.
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> it's been like it was for almost a year
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> there is no problem currently
[16:01] <-Euroslavia-> instead of thinking about #nationstates2 , think about the future channel and how successful it could be.
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> I don't care...
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> #nationstates2 is my channel...
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> I have had it so long it'd be hard to give it up
[16:02] <-Euroslavia-> so you dont even care about NS2, you care about it being your channel.
[16:02] <-Euroslavia-> I think I get it.
[16:02] <-Nathicana-> Well there we have it. It isn't about NationStates2, it's about Nanakaland and his feelings.
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> no Euro
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> I can't really explain it
[16:02] <-Nathicana-> I think you just did.
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> I ran out of time
[16:03] <-Euroslavia-> no, i understand perfectly.
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> let me rephrase it
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> I don't want to share power with nathicana who hates my guts
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> which will happen if we're ops in the same chan
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> and I'm running out of time because I have to go in 5 minutes
[16:03] <-Nathicana-> I don't hate you.
[16:03] <-Euroslavia-> She stated before she didnt hate your guts.
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> She does.
[16:04] <-UploadedMinds-> I think it's the other way around
[16:04] <-Euroslavia-> agreed
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> I don't hate Nathi
[16:04] <-Nathicana-> I think I'd know if I hated someone or not.
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> But I know Nathi hates me
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> Damn, I have to go in 5 min
[16:05] <-Euroslavia-> You refuse to interact with her, for the sake of NS2. You refuse to cooperate. That shows enough, especially when Nathi is willing to cooperate.
[16:05] * Nathicana rolls her eyes and lets Nanaka go on with his martyr complex.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> But basically I founded NS2, I don't want to merge.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> Why is it so important that there be a merger?
[16:05] <-Euroslavia-> I this, I that...that's all that matters.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> no Euro...
[16:05] <-Nathicana-> His ego will not allow it, Euro, as he's stated. I don't think you're going to get anywhere with him, even if you put the earlier nastiness he spouted at you aside.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> it will affect those who come to #NationStates2...
[16:05] * You were kicked by Nanakaland (Oh yeah, you don't hate me, you just insult me constantly.)
For the record, I do not hate Nanakaland. He has however repeatedly shown he is incapable of separating disagreement from 'hate'. I admit I dislike his demeanor, and attitudes on several occasions, this being one of them. If he showed even a modicum of regret for some of the crap he's spewed, I might even feel sorry for him.
As stated, this is a prime example of what's really wrong with the situation - it's not about NationStates II, as has previously been hinted at, it's about ego, and 'feelings', not wanting to compromise or share, and needing to be 'boss'. Just doesn't get any more selfish than that.
I'm sorry he can't take being challenged. And I'm sorry that question of silly channel ownership has him wound so tight that he feels he needs to lash out and blame other folks for his own seeming inadequacies, or whatever the problem is. I'm sorry he can't just have fun and enjoy things without finding someone to point the finger at for whichever thing isn't going exactly his way at the time.
That being said, merge the two, or don't - I'm not sure it matters that much in the long run. What I do think is that people are entirely capable and well within their rights to hang out wherever they like, and will continue to do so.
Just like those who continue to make excuses, false accusations, and problems where there needn't be any will as well, given past performance.
UPDATE:
In another effort to bring some unity, the following, posted with permission:
[11:18] <-Nathicana-> Euro!
[11:18] <-Euroslavia-> Nathi!
[11:19] <-Nathicana-> You still want a combined channel thingie?
[11:19] <-Euroslavia-> yus!
[11:19] <-Nathicana-> Right then. His statements claim his big issue is 'sharing power with nathi who hates me waaaaaah', right?
[11:20] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:20] <-Nathicana-> So ... don't involve me. Simple. Doesn't have a leg to stand on then. ;)
[11:20] <-Euroslavia-> :[11:20] <-Euroslavia-> I want you to be involved though...
[11:20] <-Nathicana-> Y'all still have my support, silly. Besides - I'm just one person and quite frankly, am not that important. I'd like to see you succeed.
[11:21] <-Euroslavia-> bah, no offense to anyone else, but I don't trust too many people more than you. I know I can count on you, as an op in a combined NS2 channel.
[11:22] <-Euroslavia-> Nana needs to realize that he can't get everything he wants. He needs to compromise too.
[11:23] <-Euroslavia-> If he can't accept you as an op, I really don't want a channel merger.
[11:23] <-Nathicana-> I appreciate the vote of confidence, truth. But I think you're going to have to at least make the offer to see if he is at all willing. Call it a compromise on your end for him having to sacrifice that ego of his. My opping isn't that big a deal, Euro. You having the combined bit you want is.
[11:24] <-Euroslavia-> :[11:24] <-Nathicana-> You don't really have much to lose by offering. If he still grasps at straws and starts tossing out new excuses, call him on it. At least he can't say you didn't try, no?
[11:25] <-Drakonia|WorldCreating-> You can always Op Nathi after the merger too.
[11:25] <-Euroslavia-> true
[11:25] <-Nathicana-> Eh, that'd smack of lying, and I'm not cool with that.
[11:25] <-Drakonia|WorldCreating-> Once, you can convince Nana. Is what I meant...no subterfuge intended.
[11:26] <-Nathicana-> He's stated his reason for not wanting it is he doesn't want to share 'power' with me, which is just plain silly. Take that reason away, and he's got nothing other than 'my ego won't allow me to share 'power' with anyone'.
[11:28] <-Euroslavia-> what's your opinion on the channel option? Should it be here? there? a new channel?
[11:28] <-Nathicana-> I think that whichever option has the most support would work just fine.
[11:28] <-Nathicana-> After all, it isn't the little things that ought to matter too much in looking at the big picture.
[11:29] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:29] <-DPUO-> If I may butt in, people usually have trouble looking at any picture larger than their own immediate surroundings and whims; judging from what I read on the logs, I doubt Nanaka's much of an exception to that rule.
[11:30] <-Euroslavia-> true
[11:30] <-Euroslavia-> "[12:30] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> for us both to drop our channels is to do a disservice to regulars"
[11:30] <-Nathicana-> Which is why I think you ought to make the offer.
[11:31] <-Nathicana-> and no, no it isn't a disservice. It's just a change in location, which really is no big deal.
[11:31] <-DPUO-> Euro, was that in reply to the idea of a new channel?
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:31] <-Nathicana-> Gee, I have to change a little setting on my autojoin. *rolls* :P
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> Rejis suggested that if there was a merger
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> I really don't see a need
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> we've had 2 NS2 channels for a long time
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> That's one of the problems
[11:32] * DPUO considers making a new channel when a perfectly good one's in existence to be rather silly.
[11:32] <-DPUO-> Is this going on now?
[11:32] <-Gruenberg-> still with this?
[11:33] <-Euroslavia-> [12:33] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> we took up all of the good names
[11:34] <-Euroslavia-> oh come on now.
[11:34] <-Nathicana-> It's important to Euro. Figured it was worth a shot. If he wants to keep being selfish, I suppose that's his affair.
[11:34] <-DPUO-> Man, that's a poor excuse. I suppose I should keep me lip buttoned though.
[11:34] <-Nathicana-> Nanaka is full of poor excuses, you'll find.
[11:34] <-DPUO-> That poor?!
[11:35] <-Nathicana-> Truth? Yes.
[11:35] <-Nathicana-> He's grasping at straws now, as predicted.
[11:37] * DPUO ponders wading in and attempting to use common sense.
[11:37] <-Euroslavia-> [12:37] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> all you want is to have power over all of NS2 probably
[11:38] <-Euroslavia-> cause I'm a powerhungry moderator. Yes.
[11:38] <-Nathicana-> Ok now, that is just right out. This from the guy who has publicly stated he can't give up power?
[11:39] <-Gruenberg-> how much 'power' is being an op in a channel of about 10 people anyway?
[11:39] <-Nathicana-> It isn't. That's the thing Nanaka can't get through his thick head. It means 'power' to him, and that's all that counts in his mind. The fact that it's nothing doesn't occur to him.
[11:41] <-Euroslavia-> I'm done. Again.
[11:41] <-Euroslavia-> If he can't even come up with a valid excuse, Im not even going to attempt to talk to him.
[11:41] <-Nathicana-> Care to post the full convo for ref, or is it not worth it?
[11:41] <-DPUO-> Yay! I got kicked!
[11:42] <-Euroslavia-> I'll post it
[11:42] <-Euroslavia-> same place, my forum
[11:42] <-Nathicana-> Nanaka proves himself to be a fraud. Ah well. Wish I could say I expected better of him.
[11:42] <-Euroslavia-> agreed
[11:43] <-Nathicana-> Permission to post convo from here on my site as well?
[11:43] <-Euroslavia-> definitely
[11:43] <-Nathicana-> Righto then.
[11:43] * DPUO find it sad that it's impossible to engage in something approximating to reational conversation with a ChanOp. Ah well.
[11:44] <-DPUO-> Yeesh, that was badly mis-spelled.
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> hehe
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> posted
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> Link
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> all 3 attempts
[11:45] <-DPUO-> "* You were kicked from #NationStates2 by Nanakaland|Busy (go back to #NationStates_2)" - sums it up, really.
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> ...
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> what an asshat
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> so then he'll want to kick Pacitalia, and one other person
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> for being in both channels
[11:46] <-Euroslavia-> he completely ignored the issue of Nathi not being opped
[11:46] <-DPUO-> *Shrug* - I may be an arsehole at times, but I like to think I at least am a reasonable arsehole. Unlike some.
[11:46] <-Euroslavia-> it was quite funny really
[11:46] <-Euroslavia-> so its quite obvious that it wasn't an issue in the first place. He was just searching for excuses.
[11:46] <-Nathicana-> He's doing the same thing as before, which is why I created THIS channel to begin with.
[11:47] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:47] <-DPUO-> What, being an unusually territorial plonker?
[11:51] <-Euroslavia-> making his channel unfriendly for certain people and basically turning it into a place for only those that he likes
I think the results speak for themselves. Nanakaland is a fraud, and a liar. Since he can't be trusted or relied on, I'd suggest folks vote with their feet, if any of them care about this sort of thing at any rate. I know well enough that anyone who cares to contribute would be welcome in #nationstates_2, and needn't fear the sorts of petty reprisals Nanakaland is known for dealing out.
Rampant egomania, false accusations, and pettiness, or just fun gameplay without the crap. You choose, folks.
UPDATE: For another pertinent example of ego getting in the way of reason, check Melkor out these days. I don't know what's up with the boy, but he's seemed to have completely lost all sense of reality when it comes to the game. Bias and attempted misuse of power anyone?
Nanakaland founded the #nationstates2 channel some time ago. He then proceeded to make it clear that not everyone was welcome there (whether they had committed any bannable offenses or not), which seemed to be rather much not in the spirit of the game. The channel was sporadically active, depending on who was logged on and when.
At one point it became abundantly clear that the animosity and exclusive behaviour had gotten entirely silly, I created a new channel for the use of folks wanting to discuss, without the draconian rule - #nationstates_2.
This created rather a ruckus - including if I recall, the infamous 'NationStates Mafia' conspiracy and such. It was, in a word, silly.
Knowing that Euroslavia and others were better qualified, I passed over ownership/founder status to him, and called it good. I'd thought that things had somewhat settled.
Fast-forward to present. Euroslavia, in a gesture of good will, offers a merge to clear up the two, and combine in a way that pleases both sides, and eliminates confusion over the two. This is what happens next.
(Followed by a complete log of everything that happened while I was in channel at least, in the second post. Feel free to compare. Not all needed to be repeated here for the sake of brevity.)
Forward again. After much discussion and being invited to aforementioned talks, Nanakaland illustrates exactly why such a merger will never take place - his ego simply will not allow it. Logged file to follow.
[15:33] <-Nathicana-> So what are each channel's reasons for wanting a merge? Earlier I heard flat out 'no' from Nanaka along with other things that needn't be mentioned.
[15:34] <-UploadedMinds-> Nanakaland: the discussions between the denominations are
[15:34] <-Nanakaland-> A similar thing happened in the Middle Ages when there was just Catholisism and Eastern Orthodoxy..
[15:34] <-Nanakaland-> They tried to unite again...
[15:34] <-Nathicana-> But we're not talking religions right now, we're talking these two channels. Lets not dredge all that up.
[15:34] <-Nanakaland-> The patriarch and pope ended up excommunicating each other
[15:35] <-UploadedMinds-> Nana, to the topic
[15:35] <-Neutron-> Nanakaland: A wee bit offtopic?
[15:35] <-Nanakaland-> My point is...
[15:35] <-Nanakaland-> When there's two divisions...
[15:35] <-Nanakaland-> One slight disagreement is enough to make things worse when you try to talk
[15:36] <-Neutron-> There are two divisions for apparently no reason. The two channels cover the exact same topic, they are just run by two different sets of people.
[15:36] <-UploadedMinds-> As founder: Do you want a merger or not?
[15:36] * Nathicana waits for the apology to be offered first.
[15:37] <-Nanakaland-> Who founded #NationStates_2?
[15:37] <-Nanakaland-> and why?
[15:37] <-Nanakaland-> There was already a #NationStates2 for a long time
[15:38] <-Rezo-> you didn't really reply to the question...
[15:39] <-UploadedMinds-> As founder: Do you want a merger or not? (y/n)
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> Can I use a lifeline?
[15:40] <-Euroslavia-> no.
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> :(
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> no then.
[15:40] <-Neutron-> Nanakaland: It is in the best interest of everyone that the channels merge
[15:40] <-Nanakaland-> if Euro doesn't want one...
[15:40] <-Nathicana-> I think honesty would be best.
[15:41] <-Rezo-> <-Neutron-> Nanakaland: It is in the best interest of everyone that the channels merge <---- I'd tentatively disaree...
[15:41] <-Euroslavia-> that wasnt my answer
[15:41] <-Euroslavia-> i was responding to your "can i use a lifeline"
[15:41] <-Nathicana-> Neutron, there is no point to forcing it, and I'm not convinced of 'greater good' or 'best interest' depending.
[15:42] <-Nanakaland-> who proposed a merger and why?
[15:42] <-Nanakaland-> why were there two separate channels in the first place?
[15:42] <-UploadedMinds-> it came up
[15:42] <-Nanakaland-> why do the two parties disagree?
[15:42] <-Euroslavia-> I proposed it because there's no point in having 2 #nationstates_2 channels
[15:42] <-Nathicana-> Well, you yourself would have to answer part of that, Nanaka.
[15:43] <-Nanakaland-> well, one is #NationStates2
[15:43] * Euroslavia notes that he said two
[15:44] <-Nanakaland-> well...
[15:45] <-UploadedMinds-> well, I am internationalist enough not to care about the name of the place I tux arounfd in
[15:46] <-Euroslavia-> ok
[15:46] <-Nanakaland-> No one answered my question
[15:46] <-Nanakaland-> Who founded #NationStates_2 and why?
[15:46] <-Nanakaland-> There was already one channel, they should have known that confusion would follow
[15:47] <-Nathicana-> I recall the other channel being largely inactive, and exclusive at the time. So I created a new one that wasn't. Simple as that.
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> It was exclusive at the time...
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> because GregorydelosSantos was in there
[15:47] <-Nathicana-> which it shouldn't be.
[15:47] * Euroslavia nods. It wasn't too active.
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> telling me who to ban
[15:47] <-Nanakaland-> until I realized
[15:48] <-Nanakaland-> it wasn't inactive and it still isn't
[15:48] <-Nathicana-> I don't care for the excuses, the fact remains, it was not a friendly channel.
[15:49] <-Nathicana-> In any case, I created the new one, it got used amply, and I handed over ownership to Euro, considering he knows more about it and is better qualified to have the keys so to speak.
[15:49] <-Nanakaland-> yeah
[15:49] <-Nanakaland-> but now there's two similarly sized channels, #NationStates_2 peaking in American time, #NationStates2 peaking in European time...
[15:49] <-UploadedMinds-> right
[15:50] <-Nanakaland-> with similarities in almost everything.
[15:50] <-UploadedMinds-> yeah
[15:50] <-Nathicana-> So one -could- mean relatively continuous use, or two could reasonably continue to exist and work as they have been.
[15:51] <-Nanakaland-> why don't we keep things the way they are?
[15:51] <-Nanakaland-> I see no problem.
[15:51] <-Nanakaland-> If we can't agree, there's no harm in keeping things the way they are.
[15:51] <-UploadedMinds-> because as people said: it's pointless
[15:51] * Nathicana looks for the disagreements.
[15:51] <-UploadedMinds-> Nana, that is a fallback
[15:52] <-Euroslavia-> wait, you just spoke of how similar both are, then you say that you want to keep things as they are?
[15:52] <-Nathicana-> Not seeing any so far, other than Nanaka's ...
[15:52] <-Euroslavia-> I'm a little confused here.
[15:52] <-Neutron-> It is like having two spoons when you're eating your breakfast cereal, only one is needed.
[15:52] <-Nanakaland-> I have been in #NationStates2 since I have been active in IRC
[15:52] <-Nanakaland-> it'd be like throwing out your favorite spoon and another and then buying a new, Neutron
[15:52] <-Nathicana-> Ok, so ego and 'feelings' are the issue.
[15:52] <-UploadedMinds-> apparently
[15:53] <-Nathicana-> It's a channel. It really shouldn't be a big deal.
[15:53] <-Nanakaland-> would you give up #nationstates for a compromise?
[15:53] <-Nathicana-> If it seemed like it was needed? Sure.
[15:54] <-Nanakaland-> let me rephrase that...
[15:54] <-Nathicana-> Not like we haven't done it before. I mean heck, we had to switch servers entirely and start all over.
[15:54] <-Nathicana-> And there was problems with that, too.
[15:54] <-Nanakaland-> Would Karma give up #NationStates for a compromise?
[15:55] <-Nathicana-> No idea. How am I supposed to answer for Karma?
[15:55] <-UploadedMinds-> Nanakaland: is Karma involved?
[15:55] <-Nathicana-> Besides, this argument gets us nowhere. #nationstates is not in question.
[15:55] <-UploadedMinds-> right
[15:56] <-Nathicana-> If Nanaka doesn't want to, he shouldn't be forced to. People are as free as they ever were to choose where they want to hang out. If it makes a difference to him, so be it. *shrugs*
[15:56] <-UploadedMinds-> yeah
[15:57] <-Nathicana-> I guess I don't get what the big deal is. Merge, or don't. Simple.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> don't
[16:00] <-Euroslavia-> why? Give me a good reason.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> It is my largest channel.
[16:00] <-Euroslavia-> a valid reason.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> I cannot give it up.
[16:00] <-Nanakaland-> It'd be like giving up a carpool where I'm driver
[16:01] <-Nathicana-> ...
[16:01] <-Rezo-> o.O
[16:01] <-Euroslavia-> so you're letting your emotions mess with the future of NS2, and the fact that there are 2 NS2 channels.
[16:01] <-Rezo-> You're an... Odd... person.
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> no...
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> It doesn't matter if there are two NS2 channels
[16:01] <-Nathicana-> I think this is a rather sad commentary then.
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> it's been like it was for almost a year
[16:01] <-Nanakaland-> there is no problem currently
[16:01] <-Euroslavia-> instead of thinking about #nationstates2 , think about the future channel and how successful it could be.
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> I don't care...
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> #nationstates2 is my channel...
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> I have had it so long it'd be hard to give it up
[16:02] <-Euroslavia-> so you dont even care about NS2, you care about it being your channel.
[16:02] <-Euroslavia-> I think I get it.
[16:02] <-Nathicana-> Well there we have it. It isn't about NationStates2, it's about Nanakaland and his feelings.
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> no Euro
[16:02] <-Nanakaland-> I can't really explain it
[16:02] <-Nathicana-> I think you just did.
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> I ran out of time
[16:03] <-Euroslavia-> no, i understand perfectly.
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> let me rephrase it
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> I don't want to share power with nathicana who hates my guts
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> which will happen if we're ops in the same chan
[16:03] <-Nanakaland-> and I'm running out of time because I have to go in 5 minutes
[16:03] <-Nathicana-> I don't hate you.
[16:03] <-Euroslavia-> She stated before she didnt hate your guts.
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> She does.
[16:04] <-UploadedMinds-> I think it's the other way around
[16:04] <-Euroslavia-> agreed
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> I don't hate Nathi
[16:04] <-Nathicana-> I think I'd know if I hated someone or not.
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> But I know Nathi hates me
[16:04] <-Nanakaland-> Damn, I have to go in 5 min
[16:05] <-Euroslavia-> You refuse to interact with her, for the sake of NS2. You refuse to cooperate. That shows enough, especially when Nathi is willing to cooperate.
[16:05] * Nathicana rolls her eyes and lets Nanaka go on with his martyr complex.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> But basically I founded NS2, I don't want to merge.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> Why is it so important that there be a merger?
[16:05] <-Euroslavia-> I this, I that...that's all that matters.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> no Euro...
[16:05] <-Nathicana-> His ego will not allow it, Euro, as he's stated. I don't think you're going to get anywhere with him, even if you put the earlier nastiness he spouted at you aside.
[16:05] <-Nanakaland-> it will affect those who come to #NationStates2...
[16:05] * You were kicked by Nanakaland (Oh yeah, you don't hate me, you just insult me constantly.)
For the record, I do not hate Nanakaland. He has however repeatedly shown he is incapable of separating disagreement from 'hate'. I admit I dislike his demeanor, and attitudes on several occasions, this being one of them. If he showed even a modicum of regret for some of the crap he's spewed, I might even feel sorry for him.
As stated, this is a prime example of what's really wrong with the situation - it's not about NationStates II, as has previously been hinted at, it's about ego, and 'feelings', not wanting to compromise or share, and needing to be 'boss'. Just doesn't get any more selfish than that.
I'm sorry he can't take being challenged. And I'm sorry that question of silly channel ownership has him wound so tight that he feels he needs to lash out and blame other folks for his own seeming inadequacies, or whatever the problem is. I'm sorry he can't just have fun and enjoy things without finding someone to point the finger at for whichever thing isn't going exactly his way at the time.
That being said, merge the two, or don't - I'm not sure it matters that much in the long run. What I do think is that people are entirely capable and well within their rights to hang out wherever they like, and will continue to do so.
Just like those who continue to make excuses, false accusations, and problems where there needn't be any will as well, given past performance.
UPDATE:
In another effort to bring some unity, the following, posted with permission:
[11:18] <-Nathicana-> Euro!
[11:18] <-Euroslavia-> Nathi!
[11:19] <-Nathicana-> You still want a combined channel thingie?
[11:19] <-Euroslavia-> yus!
[11:19] <-Nathicana-> Right then. His statements claim his big issue is 'sharing power with nathi who hates me waaaaaah', right?
[11:20] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:20] <-Nathicana-> So ... don't involve me. Simple. Doesn't have a leg to stand on then. ;)
[11:20] <-Euroslavia-> :[11:20] <-Euroslavia-> I want you to be involved though...
[11:20] <-Nathicana-> Y'all still have my support, silly. Besides - I'm just one person and quite frankly, am not that important. I'd like to see you succeed.
[11:21] <-Euroslavia-> bah, no offense to anyone else, but I don't trust too many people more than you. I know I can count on you, as an op in a combined NS2 channel.
[11:22] <-Euroslavia-> Nana needs to realize that he can't get everything he wants. He needs to compromise too.
[11:23] <-Euroslavia-> If he can't accept you as an op, I really don't want a channel merger.
[11:23] <-Nathicana-> I appreciate the vote of confidence, truth. But I think you're going to have to at least make the offer to see if he is at all willing. Call it a compromise on your end for him having to sacrifice that ego of his. My opping isn't that big a deal, Euro. You having the combined bit you want is.
[11:24] <-Euroslavia-> :[11:24] <-Nathicana-> You don't really have much to lose by offering. If he still grasps at straws and starts tossing out new excuses, call him on it. At least he can't say you didn't try, no?
[11:25] <-Drakonia|WorldCreating-> You can always Op Nathi after the merger too.
[11:25] <-Euroslavia-> true
[11:25] <-Nathicana-> Eh, that'd smack of lying, and I'm not cool with that.
[11:25] <-Drakonia|WorldCreating-> Once, you can convince Nana. Is what I meant...no subterfuge intended.
[11:26] <-Nathicana-> He's stated his reason for not wanting it is he doesn't want to share 'power' with me, which is just plain silly. Take that reason away, and he's got nothing other than 'my ego won't allow me to share 'power' with anyone'.
[11:28] <-Euroslavia-> what's your opinion on the channel option? Should it be here? there? a new channel?
[11:28] <-Nathicana-> I think that whichever option has the most support would work just fine.
[11:28] <-Nathicana-> After all, it isn't the little things that ought to matter too much in looking at the big picture.
[11:29] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:29] <-DPUO-> If I may butt in, people usually have trouble looking at any picture larger than their own immediate surroundings and whims; judging from what I read on the logs, I doubt Nanaka's much of an exception to that rule.
[11:30] <-Euroslavia-> true
[11:30] <-Euroslavia-> "[12:30] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> for us both to drop our channels is to do a disservice to regulars"
[11:30] <-Nathicana-> Which is why I think you ought to make the offer.
[11:31] <-Nathicana-> and no, no it isn't a disservice. It's just a change in location, which really is no big deal.
[11:31] <-DPUO-> Euro, was that in reply to the idea of a new channel?
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:31] <-Nathicana-> Gee, I have to change a little setting on my autojoin. *rolls* :P
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> Rejis suggested that if there was a merger
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> I really don't see a need
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> we've had 2 NS2 channels for a long time
[11:31] <-Euroslavia-> [12:31] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> That's one of the problems
[11:32] * DPUO considers making a new channel when a perfectly good one's in existence to be rather silly.
[11:32] <-DPUO-> Is this going on now?
[11:32] <-Gruenberg-> still with this?
[11:33] <-Euroslavia-> [12:33] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> we took up all of the good names
[11:34] <-Euroslavia-> oh come on now.
[11:34] <-Nathicana-> It's important to Euro. Figured it was worth a shot. If he wants to keep being selfish, I suppose that's his affair.
[11:34] <-DPUO-> Man, that's a poor excuse. I suppose I should keep me lip buttoned though.
[11:34] <-Nathicana-> Nanaka is full of poor excuses, you'll find.
[11:34] <-DPUO-> That poor?!
[11:35] <-Nathicana-> Truth? Yes.
[11:35] <-Nathicana-> He's grasping at straws now, as predicted.
[11:37] * DPUO ponders wading in and attempting to use common sense.
[11:37] <-Euroslavia-> [12:37] <-Nanakaland|Busy-> all you want is to have power over all of NS2 probably
[11:38] <-Euroslavia-> cause I'm a powerhungry moderator. Yes.
[11:38] <-Nathicana-> Ok now, that is just right out. This from the guy who has publicly stated he can't give up power?
[11:39] <-Gruenberg-> how much 'power' is being an op in a channel of about 10 people anyway?
[11:39] <-Nathicana-> It isn't. That's the thing Nanaka can't get through his thick head. It means 'power' to him, and that's all that counts in his mind. The fact that it's nothing doesn't occur to him.
[11:41] <-Euroslavia-> I'm done. Again.
[11:41] <-Euroslavia-> If he can't even come up with a valid excuse, Im not even going to attempt to talk to him.
[11:41] <-Nathicana-> Care to post the full convo for ref, or is it not worth it?
[11:41] <-DPUO-> Yay! I got kicked!
[11:42] <-Euroslavia-> I'll post it
[11:42] <-Euroslavia-> same place, my forum
[11:42] <-Nathicana-> Nanaka proves himself to be a fraud. Ah well. Wish I could say I expected better of him.
[11:42] <-Euroslavia-> agreed
[11:43] <-Nathicana-> Permission to post convo from here on my site as well?
[11:43] <-Euroslavia-> definitely
[11:43] <-Nathicana-> Righto then.
[11:43] * DPUO find it sad that it's impossible to engage in something approximating to reational conversation with a ChanOp. Ah well.
[11:44] <-DPUO-> Yeesh, that was badly mis-spelled.
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> hehe
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> posted
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> Link
[11:44] <-Euroslavia-> all 3 attempts
[11:45] <-DPUO-> "* You were kicked from #NationStates2 by Nanakaland|Busy (go back to #NationStates_2)" - sums it up, really.
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> ...
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> what an asshat
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> so then he'll want to kick Pacitalia, and one other person
[11:45] <-Euroslavia-> for being in both channels
[11:46] <-Euroslavia-> he completely ignored the issue of Nathi not being opped
[11:46] <-DPUO-> *Shrug* - I may be an arsehole at times, but I like to think I at least am a reasonable arsehole. Unlike some.
[11:46] <-Euroslavia-> it was quite funny really
[11:46] <-Euroslavia-> so its quite obvious that it wasn't an issue in the first place. He was just searching for excuses.
[11:46] <-Nathicana-> He's doing the same thing as before, which is why I created THIS channel to begin with.
[11:47] <-Euroslavia-> yep
[11:47] <-DPUO-> What, being an unusually territorial plonker?
[11:51] <-Euroslavia-> making his channel unfriendly for certain people and basically turning it into a place for only those that he likes
I think the results speak for themselves. Nanakaland is a fraud, and a liar. Since he can't be trusted or relied on, I'd suggest folks vote with their feet, if any of them care about this sort of thing at any rate. I know well enough that anyone who cares to contribute would be welcome in #nationstates_2, and needn't fear the sorts of petty reprisals Nanakaland is known for dealing out.
Rampant egomania, false accusations, and pettiness, or just fun gameplay without the crap. You choose, folks.
UPDATE: For another pertinent example of ego getting in the way of reason, check Melkor out these days. I don't know what's up with the boy, but he's seemed to have completely lost all sense of reality when it comes to the game. Bias and attempted misuse of power anyone?
posted by Nathicana at 4:10 PM
5 Comments:
Fun gameplay.
No crap.
#nationstates2 is my choice indeed.
Nanakaland was in my opinion misquoted, or due to lacking time unable to express himself. His fear was the that he is unable to speak his mind and for random weirdness like ASCIIday or Luserhunt. From what I saw about the #ns_2lers and their inability to take into account the lacking time, I can say that I really prefer #nationstates2 and see his fear justified.
As far as I'm concerned, you two are rivals. Therefore, neither of your comment on the other can be taken as rational, nor can quoted text, in relation to the other, be taken as a accurate reflection of that person on the whole.
Therefore, I reckon what you have said cannot be rational, and isn't. I would side with Nanakaland, not unfalteringly, but fairly, it would appear, however, 'you started it,' despite what Nanakaland may have done relating to that.
#nationstates2 is my choice - especially because, as would seem from previous visits and Nanakaland's testament, #ns_2 was set up in order to mock Nanakaland on his ban from #nationstates - something which is unfair, and generally unfriendly, albeit a person banned from a channel you were opped it, there was no reason to do it.
Jon
He was not misquoted. He has since had ample time to ponder and rethink, and has maintained the same attitudes.
#nationstates_2 was set up for the reasons stated. You don't have to believe, as I can see several of you choose to stick with your own biases rather than consider any options outside what's been fed you. That's your choice.
I'm not in competition with Nanaka. The fact he sees this thing as such is also his choice. His problem, not mine. If I were in 'competition' so to speak, I wouldn't have offered to disassociate myself from the new merger entirely. I would like to see something good come of this. Can Nanaka say the same?
Oh, and for those who have so obviously missed it? I have never once claimed any channel is 'better' than the others. Simply different. If you enjoy a channel steeped in bias and run by someone who's ego gets the better of him, that is your choice. It isn't the channel's fault, after all. He's responsible for his own behaviour.
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